Manthan, Hyderabad: When Arun Shourie Mimics Arnab Goswami

Arun Shourie Speaks about a lamentable practice started by Bennet Colman Group.. of private treaties with corporations. - Full credits to Manthan & arun shourie for a wonderfull insight about current discourse.

Arun Shourie Speaks on Private Treaties At Manthan Hydrabad







Manthan, Hyderabad: When Arun Shourie Mimics Arnab Goswami

‘Everything shows that the Prime Minister knew and did nothing about the (telecom scam)’

Source: Indian express

SUNIL JAIN: Kapil Sibal claims A Raja followed what the NDA government had done on spectrum allocation. As telecom minister during the NDA government, can you explain what you did?

Arun Shourie: People today cannot visualise what the the telecom sector was like at that time. Tele-density today is 60 per cent, at that time it was 4.1 per cent. There were large parts of the country where despite bids being invited, not a single operator had bid. There were parts of the country where bids had been won and licenses had been granted and their services had not yet been activated. For example, Northeast, where nobody had taken the licence. The whole sector was collapsing. It was rescued from that by shifting from fixed fee to revenue sharing. A third factor was that there were 20 types of licences and fees and this led to much litigation. The whole sector was caught up in litigation--we have had a small glimpse of that in the exchange of letters between Mr Rajeev Chandrasekhar (Rajya Sabha MP)and Mr Ratan Tata. There were a host of issues related to licences and subsequent litigation and Ataliji (Prime Minister Vajpayee) told me that this sector needed cleaning up. I felt the main problem was the splintering of licences. This was one of the two or three sectors which was still left in the licence quota raj phase. I felt we must unify licences and the government should be technology neutral, it should be service-provider neutral, it should be service neutral. The idea emerged for a unified licence, in which a service provider can provide any service to any user anywhere in the country using any technology. This matter was referred to TRAI. TRAI wrote a very good report at that time (October 2003), the substance of which was that you should be technology agnostic, don’t go in for a universal licence in one go because it will lead to complications. They suggested we do it in two phases.

Sunil Jain: We understand that there was a controversy around Reliance and WLL, which was illegal at that time. TRAI came out with a recommendation, saying let’s go for UASL (Unified Access Service License), which meant that whoever had a fixed licence can offer WLL services. The second recommendation was that having done this, any future person who wanted to offer mobile services, will have to do a multi-stage bidding for that.

Arun Shourie: The concept was you will have automatic authorisation for anybody who wants to come in. With a low entry fee, divorce the spectrum from the licence. Whereas the earlier practice was that spectrum was given as a part of the government obligation for having allowed you to provide a service.

SUNIL JAIN: So TRAI allowed people the option of moving to UASL and in future, if anybody wants to offer a new service, please do multi-stage bidding for that.

Arun Shourie: Only after the unified licensing regime is introduced, please don't forget that phrase. But the unified licensing regime has not been introduced till today.

Sunil Jain: Let us assume for the sake of argument that BJP did everything wrong and was favouring people. Of the licences issued, you issued only some of them, the rest were all issued by the Congress minister. In 2005, the Congress came out with some new guidelines for what the prices should be for UASL. Would this be your answer to Sibal that if you assume we were wrong, in 2005 December when you issued new guidelines, why did you stick to the Rs 1,651 crore price?

Arun Shourie: That is a good argument which I shall remember. But you have to look at the growth in tele-density--that is what determines whether the 2001 price is justifiable or not. Between 2001 and 2003 there had hardly been any improvement in tele-density, but if you use the same price in 2009, then obviously that is wrong when tele-density has increased to 48 per cent. The point about Raja is that he followed no principle, no policy.

First-come-first-served was never the only criteria. When Raja said first-come-first- served, there were 539 existing applications. In a first-come-first-serve situation, those should be processed first. But he didn't process them. He contacted the real estate companies and said bring in your applications with a cut-off date of October 1. Four months later, he made September 25 the cut off date. A large number of applications were removed but not the ones he wanted to favour. Then he changed the basis of the first-come-first-serve process. He changed it from the date and time of receipt of application to the date and time on which letters of intent conditions are fulfilled and paid. That means you must bring Rs 1,651 crore, as CAG says, in 41 minutes. After that, he was still not able to give Swan Telecom the amount of spectrum which he had contracted for and so he changed the priority list in circles which are very lucrative today, like Punjab and Maharashtra and this was the first-come-first-served process. So to say that I am following Arun Shourie’s footsteps is wrong. I have said this many times--Raja, stop following my footsteps, follow my advice. My advice is turn an approver. Even your leader Mr. Karunanidhi has said one man could not have made so much money all by himself, so tell us who are the other persons.

Rishi Raj: The Prime Minister’s silence has been an issue. The Cabinet decision of 2003 said that finance ministry should always be involved in pricing of spectrum. So when Raja did not listen to the finance ministry as well as the law ministry for auction, the two ministries could have independently approached the Cabinet on the matter, which they did not do. How do you view this?

Arun Shourie: That shows the character of the government today. Chidambaram wrote a letter and there are several letters on record written by Subbarao--who's now the RBI Governor, but was then the Finance Secretary--saying don’t do this. By contrast, I discussed every single matter with Jaswant Singh, Finance Minister then and head of the Group of Ministers which considered the TRAI recommendations. More than that, the finance ministry is institutionally represented by the member finance in the Telecom Commission. In Raja’s time, the member finance got so disgusted with Raja’s illegalities that she sought premature retirement. It is my personal knowledge that Prime Minister had called Nripendra Misra, who succeeded Pradeep Baijal as the chairman of TRAI, to brief him. He said that Raja had claimed he was following TRAI recommendations, was that the case or not?

Nripendra Misra said no, he was not. Then Pranab Mukherjee called him and Nripendra Misra told him the same thing. Nripendra Misra came to me after a few months and said this is what they have called me for, what should I do.

I said please put it on record, files last a long time. So Prime Ministerknows from Nripendra Misra, from the press, he knows of the violations reported by every operator. He himself writes a letter saying that complaints that are coming in, please consider a transparent procedure for auctioning the spectrum. As I have mentioned, Sibal is the advocate of Raja and not of the government. Each time he defends Raja, he implicates the Prime Minister.

There were two persons who were handling affairs for Raja, one was Chandolia (Raja's private secretary) and there was another person. Raja was cruel to this other person, he fell out, he sought transfer from the department, started giving out information, none of the journalists wouldtake it. He was receiving threats, lures of money but he was the hero of the entire situation, he kept giving out information. In August-September 2009, I met the PM outside the Rajya Sabha. I told him that ‘under the umbrella of your good name loot is going on’. I showed him a list of the front companies and what Raja was doing. I told him about this person and that he was ready to give the entire evidence on record. I asked if I could meet Principal Secretary TKA Nair. Then I could give him all these papers and CBI or someone could investigate. I waited for one month but there was no call. I then contacted Ashwini Kumar, Director, CBI. I gave him all the papers and said, there is this man and here is his telephone number, he will give you all the evidence. CBI contacted him and had a series of meetings with him. Nothing happened so I asked the CBI what happened and they said, `Sir your man knows everything, we have followed up, everything is ready but we have to wait for a nod of the Prime Minister'. Nothing happened and nothing was going to happen. Then this meteor of CAG fell and Raja was indefensible. All the companies of Raja that have been raided are in the list that was given to the CBI at that time. It turned out to be absolutely correct. The rapidity with which they are able to move right now is precisely because they knew everything already. The Prime Minister has to be encouraged to be a good man, a good man means who enforces goodness in the circles which are under you. In this case, everything shows that Prime Minister knew and did nothing.

Shekhar Gupta: Does the CBI have sufficient evidence to convict people?

Arun Shourie: Yes. I had been told that in one set of transactions, they have been able to track the money trail. I would not be surprised if some of those persons--not just Raja and his advocate Kapil Sibal--are also deflecting attention to a JPC, and other matters. They don’t want the prosecution to proceed.

Shefalee Vasudev: Everything seems to be falling apart--civil society and the state. If you had to start a clean-up process, would you start with judicial reforms?

Arun Shourie: When such situations arise, think of Gandhiji’s phrase: anything, anyone, anywhere, anytime. We should not think of just judicial reforms, police reforms or qualifications for legislators. Many people are now feeling that the situation is ripe for another people’s movement. Political parties feel they don’t have the credibility at the moment, they have to find some non-political faces to start the process. You can guess the names they are gravitating towards--APJ Abul Kalam is one and three former chief justices of India. People feel the situation is ripening for a people's movement--the government is being buffeted, it will continue to flounder.

Ravish Tiwari: The Opposition today is looking for a protagonist. The BJP is going through a power game within its own ranks. There is no protagonist like VP Singh in 1989. What is the remedy?

Arun Shourie: I don’t want to comment on the BJP. But sometimes, erratic things throw up protagonists. I am not saying this is going to happen. It is a very different public today and a very different country where money-making is accepted and looked up to. People have got accustomed to these things. So I am not saying this is the solution. But from random situations, protagonists do rise. For instance, who thought that Mohamed ElBaradei would become the focal point of a people’s movement in Egypt? However, mass movements, even if ignited, can remove but cannot construct. Construction requires a much longer effort.

Soma Das: A few days ago, you said that Pranab Mukherjee is one of the best PMs we are yet to have.

Arun Shourie: He is certainly one person who has goodwill across the political spectrum. He is certainly mature, I don’t know about other things. Many persons are seeing a window of opportunity for themselves between Mr. Manmohan Singh demitting office and Rahul Gandhi not being ready, so ‘kisika bhi number aa sakta hai.’

Shekhar Gupta: Has the CBI been in touch with you?

Arun Shourie: I had rung up Mr. A P Singh, the CBI Director, about two months ago, saying that now that you are questioning former officials like Pradip Baijal and Vinod Vaish, I am sure you would want to question me, so I will come any day. The date has been fixed for February 21.

Shekhar Gupta: Is it your instinctive sense that whatever the CBI is doing is right?

Arun Shourie: They are absolutely on the right track. The reason is twofold: the monitoring by the Supreme Court and second, it is not difficult to be on track when public pressure is so intense. Supreme Court must continue to monitor it like a hawk and public pressure must continue. We must never forget that this is just the first stage, even the investigation is not over. After that the trials will start, appeals will be made, etc. So this requires perseverance.

Amitabh Sinha: Jairam Ramesh has been taking your name in the Lavasa controversy. You live in Lavasa, can you tell us what you think of the case?

Arun Shourie: For reasons that do not have to do so much with the merits of this case, Jairam has taken an extreme position. I had sent him an email in this regard saying, please don’t think of ‘either-or’ but ‘and-also’. Secondly, if the state of India gives clearance to POSCO or Vedanta, and they spend time and money and then, seven years later, you say stop the work, it brings the Indian state into question. In the case of Lavasa, I can tell you, the developers are thinking in terms of a model, they are aiming for international recognition. So they are having bio-mimicry workshops, plantation workshops and hydro-seeding and they take great pride in that. Sitting in Delhi we can’t realise what happens but there were 8,000 workers there, mostly from Bihar with their families and little children and suddenly no work. Many of the local people had opened vegetable shops, milk stalls--all closed. The real issue is that there should be some norms. I am told Jairam will give the clearance on February 14 for the first stage of Lavasa, so I hope that happens.

Ravish Tiwari: In the name of social expenditure, we are spending Rs 30,000 crore on NGREGS while the allocation for rural roads is only Rs 10,000 crore in the budget. Similarly, you are coming out with food security rather than creating infrastructure for storage. So how are these things going to play out for the future of the country?

Arun Shourie: Only educated people who are not going to stand for elections can oppose this. Schemes like NREGS are like throwing money out of the window. Unless delivery measures are improved, all these populist measures are going to boomerang. I opposed this at that time to the great discomfiture of the masters in BJP. Populist measures are a main cause of the current inflation. People like Yashwant Sinha, who work in their constituencies, will tell you this is nothing but centralised corruption.

Ravish Tiwari: Has India lost its story?

Arun Shourie: In America, you are getting just one per cent interest, here it is 8.5-9 per cent. That is why FII money is still coming in. I meet investors all the time, and they are all now expressing concern. They say that the long-term Indian growth story remains but we are all living for the short-term and what about that?

Transcribed by Smita Aggarwal & Sweta Dutta

For the longer version, visit www.indianexpress.com

'BJP and Congress are one party' : Arun Shourie

Source: Rediff

Arun Shourie discusses the real meaning of the Radia tapes with Rediff.com's Sheela Bhatt Arun Shourie is a former newspaper editor, twice a member of the Rajya Sabha, a former Union minister, right-wing thinker and author of 25 books.
He is currently working on this 26th book at the Lavasa complex near Pune, an attempt to understand human suffering through various religions.

Despite the spiritual thrust of his latest book, Shourie, 69, keeps a sharp eye on New Delhi [ Images ].
Here he takes readers through the minefields of the 2G spectrum scam and the Niira Radia tapes and explains how the political milieu in New Delhi has reached the tipping point.
The first of a two-part conversation:
How can we make sense of what is happening in New Delhi after the expose of the 2G spectrum scandal and the release of the Niira Radia tapes?
What's the bigger message that comes out of Radia's conversations?
This shows the extent of corporate penetration into government, into the media and into details of policy making.
The main point that emerges from the tapes is the level of corporate penetration. These tapes have shown that everybody is now linked to everybody else.
Democracy survives on counter-rallying power. It survives when there are alternate sources of authority. But now those have joined hands. There is, what my friend (Union Urban Development Minister S) Jaipal Reddy has once called, an invisible government of India [ Images ] which is completely stable.
The visible Government of India keeps changing, but that invisible government of India remains completely stable.
That is the real danger because now the Opposition is no different from the ruling party, whichever is the ruling party. The influence of those puppeteers behind the scene works on both sides. As a result, no issue is pursued to conclusion.
Is the 2G issue a new one? No. It is two years old. I know how I have taken documents to editors, to senior people in government. How can it be that only one reporter in one newspaper The Pioneer was following it? He was not withholding information, but not one newspaper or television channel touched it.
Today also the reportage is about what (former telecom minister) A Raja says, what Arun Shourie says. Is that the end of the story? I hardly read newspapers now. I just don't watch television. There is nothing to be learnt.
Why are journalists going for sound bytes? Why don't they take the documents home, study it and come to their own conclusions? I can't understand.
I feel completely distanced from this profession (journalism) and, of course, politicians. They are in bed with each other and with everybody.
Don't you think the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party [ Images ]) also has a lot to answer for in the current situation?
I don't see the difference between the two. I feel they (the BJP and the Congress) are one party. They are jointly ruling. It is a dinner party. They meet at dinners. They meet socially. They decide on what has to be done about issues.
It is all very cooperative behaviour. They (the BJP) are shouting (for a Joint Parliamentary Committee). They know that it will kill the investigation.
A JPC will raise side issues and that is what both sides want. Because the corporates behind both sides are the same. They don't want the 2G spectrum investigation to proceed.
If you see the bigger picture of 2G spectrum, it is a battle between the old operators and the new operators in telecom...
But that's the separate issue...
It was during the NDA (National Democratic Alliance) government led by the BJP that (then Union minister) Ananth Kumar introduced Niira Radia to the New Delhi set-up.
Yes, that's one point. I remember there was a report in that regard in the Indian Express which had an eight column front-page story just below the masthead. The story was about Ananth Kumar and Niira Radia's association with each other. I don't recollect if Annath Kumar was then the civil aviation or tourism minister.
I was astonished to read that such person has been named in the report. I was told by a very senior official about the observations made by some agency. He was in a position to know about the minister. He told me that the report about Ananth Kumar and Radia's association is correct and that is why no action was taken against the published report.
See, issues are not taken up in New Delhi by anybody. The political parties and corporates have complete liaison with the media. Its not just Barkha Dutt and Vir Sanghvi, it is the whole lot involved with each other.
That's why political parties are not taking up the issue of the Radia tapes. The cpi-m (Communist Party of India-Marxist) shouted about the tapes, but the next day the story came that West Bengal [ Images ] Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharya [ Images ] was dealing with Radia for the West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation.
Now can the CPI-M [ Images ] shout 'crony capitalism' in the same way?
The problem is the homogenisation of India's political parties. All are becoming clones of each other. That means there is no counter-wheeling power any longer in the country.
Do you accept the argument of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's [ Images ] supporters and Congress leaders that there are limitations to a coalition government?
Also, a Congress leader claimed that you can't ask the government to abdicate the duty to govern by taking action under pressure.
Why have they taken action now? Has the coalition fallen? No. These arguments are not right.
The prime minister of India has unlimited power. Our system is so structured that the PM knows everything.
Yashwant Sinha [ Images ], when he was finance minister, told me an incident. He got a message from a leader of the state that s/he wanted to see him. He asked Prime Minister (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee if he could can meet that person. Vajpayee said he could meet her/him.
When Sinha went to the state he met the particular leader without anyone knowing about it. He had lunch and talked about all sorts of things. At the end of it, the leader gave him an envelope. He kept it in his pocket. He came to New Delhi and only then opened it.
It was a legal brief on why cases against that leader should not be pursued by the Enforcement Directorate. He put the envelope in his drawer and did nothing about it. He forgot the case.
Several days later he met Vajpayee and spoke about his meeting with the state leader. Vajpayee listened quietly and kept looking at him. At the end of the meeting he asked Sinha, 'Aur woh lifafa (what about the envelope)?'
Sinha was astonished since he had told no one about the meeting and he did not act on what was requested.
Unless the prime minister deliberately shuts his eyes there is no difficulty in knowing everything. It would be incredible that the prime minister would not know. The system is so structured.
Second, all the telecom dealings were done in public. The Prime Minister's Office would certainly read the newspapers. There was so much commotion in Sanchar Bhuvan that people were beaten up the day the allotment of 2G spectrum was announced.
The point is that the prime minister himself wrote a letter and as politely as possible gave instructions that please examine the issue of auctioning of spectrum and determining its price in a fair and transparent manner.
And his minister disregards that.
Do you think that the PM would not know that?
It was the letter signed by him that was ignored.
Coalition dharma doesn't mean that I will become protector of the corrupt.
I feel the prime minister must have known about the 2G issue. That's evident from all sorts of facts.
Second, coalition compulsions do not give you the licence to abdicate your duty.
If your minister is doing something wrong, as captain of the team, the prime minister owes the responsibility to the country to stop the minister.
If the PM had confronted (Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam [ Images ] chief M) Karunanidhi with all the evidence, I don't imagine he would have told the PM, 'Don't take action against Raja'.
It is possible that the Congress party must have prevailed over the PMO in that matter.
I don't know. I have heard the opposite. Six months ago, the Congress party had told the prime minister that you remove Raja and it is your responsibility to explain this matter to Karunanidhi. That is what senior leaders of the party have been saying.
I don't know the inner party politics of the Congress. But your point of view or mine is immaterial.
The material fact is that nothing was done. People are asking, 'Raja ke khilaf karwai kyon nahi ki? (Why was action not taken against Raja?)'

Quota is not the way: Arun Shourie

CNN-IBN

Published on Sun, Jun 25, 2006

Karan Thapar: Hello and Welcome to Devil’s Advocate. My guest today is one of the sharpest critics of India’s reservation policy. In a book published this month Falling Over Backward, he exposes its intellectual hollowness and its moral two-facedness. But is he against reservation specifically for the Scheduled Castes? And if he answers this as yes, then how does he think India should respond to the centuries of discrimination they have suffered? Those are the two key questions that I would put today to Arun Shourie.

Mr Shourie, let me start with a simple question to establish your position. When you say you are against reservation per say, are you also including reservation for the Scheduled Caste?

Arun Shourie: Yes, I think so. Because reservations are not meant to compensate for historic wrongs. They are meant for helping people at the moment.

Karan Thapar: Well, that’s what I want to put to you. The Scheduled Castes have been treated as untouchables for centuries. In fact, even their shadow was considered to be polluting. Their dignity has been trampled upon. Their individuality and humanity has been questioned. Why do you believe that reservation is not an appropriate way of giving them confidence and status?

Arun Shourie: Firstly, these are clichés without particular examination of historical records. Because a passage occurs in something called Manu’s doctrine or Manu’s compilation, I mean I have not met a person who realises or who acknowledges the fact that this compilation was done over 700 years.

Karan Thapar: Let's leave Manu Smriti out.

Arun Shourie: No.

Karan Thapar: When you are saying these are clichés, are you saying that in fact the untouchables have not been treated in the way that history acknowledges?

Arun Shourie: No. They have been in parts of India. Let's say in some districts of the South. And the real remedy to that has been in modernisation. In overcrowded trains... Indians make five billion railway journeys every year. Five times of our population. In overcrowded buses, are you first verifying what is the caste of the person standing next to you?

Karan Thapar: But what happens when you get off the bus? It’s an argument in your book.

Arun Shourie: No. No.

Karan Thapar: Equality may be forced upon you in a bus, because you have no choice. But when you get off the bus, inequality reigns supreme. It is that inequality that I am talking about.

Arun Shourie: It doesn’t. That’s not the argument in my book at all.

Karan Thapar: I am not saying it is the argument in your book. I am countering your position that reservations are not justified for Scheduled Castes. I am asking you why you believe that centuries of discrimination should not be countered by reservations?

Arun Shourie: You asked me that and I gave you the answer that reservations were and are not meant in the Constituent Assembly as a compensation for historic wrong.

Karan Thapar: They can be used for that?

Arun Shourie: But… My friend, let me answer. Because there are better ways to lift people. Poor must be helped, they must be lifted. That’s the duty of society, but reservation is not the way and that’s why I argued.

Karan Thapar: Let's come to the better ways in a moment's time, I very much want to talk about them. But for most people listening to this interview, it will come as supreme shock that you believe reservations for the Scheduled Castes, who have suffered centuries of discrimination, are unjustified. Let me put to you why people disagree. Even today, Valmiki graduates are unable to get proper jobs and have to scavenge because they are considered untouchables. Even today, the Mushahars of Bihar are forced to eat rats and mice because they are too poor to access proper meal. Are you saying to me that reservations for such people are wrong?

Arun Shourie: Yes. Because the way to help them is to give them jobs and to give them access to education so that they don’t eat the damned mice. And the very fact that after 50 years of reservations, they are still eating mice is a conclusive argument against the compassion that you are showing.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that they don’t get jobs because they are untouchables.

Arun Shourie: Absolutely bunk. It is the other way round.

Karan Thapar: Why then are there Valmiki graduates scavenging for a living?

Arun Shourie: But there are Brahmin graduates who are doing it because of inadequacy of jobs.

Karan Thapar: But there is a difference. In one case, there is discrimination and in the other it is the inadequacy of jobs.

Arun Shourie: No. No. You just don’t let me speak. In China, people are scavenging and eating rats. Not because of caste, but because of 110 million of floating population who have lost their jobs.

Karan Thapar: Chinese eat snails, they eat eels, they eat snakes. There is a different culture and cuisine.

Arun Shourie: No. Just one second. I am talking of the 110 million Chinese who have been dislocated by modernisation. You read any Chinese text and you will find that. The point there is that I am all for the stopping of eating mice and elimination of poverty and giving people jobs, but it is wrong to presume…

Karan Thapar: Aren’t you missing the point here? There is difference.

Arun Shourie: No, I am not missing the point. You are not letting me make the point here. But when they are being discriminated against, the persons who are doing that most, who are beating them, who are responsible for the massacres as reported by Mandal himself are the so-called OBCs, who own land.

Karan Thapar: But that’s not the question I asked you.

Arun Shourie: But that’s the question.

Karan Thapar: No, that is not the question. The question is this. There is a difference in dislocation because of modernisation that affects people of all classes, of all castes. I am talking about discrimination due to untouchability, due to a wall of prejudice, which has affected people for centuries. Surely, today modern India has a moral obligation to atone and to recompense for the way it has treated the Scheduled Castes. You are denying that?

Arun Shourie: Karan, I completely would put aside this moral outrage that many of you put on.

Karan Thapar: It’s not put on, it is a reality for the people who are affected.

Arun Shourie: Just a second. Yes, but the so-called modern people do put on this compassion. The fact of the matter is that great progress has been made by our social reformers. That is the real way for dealing with this. Swami Dayanand, Swami Shraddhanand, Sri Narayan Guru in the South…

Karan Thapar: I am afraid it hasn’t changed the situation at the ground.

Arun Shourie: You are absolutely…How do you know the situation? Will you please just let me speak?

Karan Thapar: Can I just answer that?

Arun Shourie: No. First let me speak. Let me first answer your question when you assert that the situation has not changed, that is what I call a cliché. You have to listen.

Karan Thapar: Can I justify that?

Arun Shourie: No. Just one second, let me complete it. I will give you the documentary evidence. You see what Sri Narayan Guru reported in Kerala at the turn of the century. You see what Gandhiji found in the 1920s and you compare that with things today.

Karan Thapar: Compare it with 2006. Name one village out of India’s 6,00,000 villages where the Dalits are permitted to stay in the centre of the village. Not only are they banished to the outskirts, but in most cases, they are required to live in the south side so that the wind that blows over them doesn’t pollute the village. That is the extent of discrimination they still suffer.

Arun Shourie: And the wind in all of South India comes from the south my friend. I don’t know where you get this nonsense from?

Karan Thapar: Chandrabhan Prasad, perhaps one of the few Dalit intellectual scholars, who can easily confirm the facts to you.

Arun Shourie: Well, maybe. We have all got impressions about India. India is a large country. Almost every statement about India must be true, but the south business is quite silly because if you come to Goa my friend, you see the wind coming form the south. You come to Kerala, you see the wind coming from the south.

Karan Thapar: Ok. Let's approach this matter differently. Let's not talk about it in terms of moral obligation or recompense and atonement. Let me put it like this. Do you believe that reservations are intrinsically wrong because they lower standards, because they sacrifice merit as a way of giving people access for the wrong reasons?

Arun Shourie: Yes, they are for all these reasons and many more. For instance, especially when they are caste-based, then they reinforce caste as they have done in South as they are now doing in the North.

Karan Thapar: That’s disputable. You can only fight caste discrimination in terms of caste. Leave the caste basis aside. Your concern is that it affects merit.

Arun Shourie: But why it is caste-based? All reservations in India are caste-based. How can you just put it aside?

Karan Thapar: Because you are correcting caste prejudice. If the Dalits have been discriminated against as untouchables, you have to be given reservation on that very basis to make up for it.

Arun Shourie: That was the argument my friend. That is how things were rationalised in the end when the Constitution specifically forbade caste-based reservations. Then there has been discrimination on the basis of residence. There has been discrimination in India, it has been alleged, on the basis of language as in every other society. On the colour of one’s skin.

Karan Thapar: Quite right.

Arun Shourie: Just one second. So why not have reservations on the basis of the colour of one’s skin?

Karan Thapar: Well let's not talk about hypotheticals. I am trying to understand your concern about reservations.

Arun Shourie: I am not talking about hypotheticals. You said that there is discrimination on the basis of caste.

Karan Thapar: It’s a fact.

Arun Shourie: So I said there is discrimination on the basis of the colour of one’s skin. Why not have reservations for that? You are not answering it.

Karan Thapar: Because I am saying to you that the level of discrimination that has been practised on the basis of caste and because of untouchability is infinitely and incomparably greater. The comparison doesn’t arise.

Arun Shourie: How do you say that, my friend? Where is the basis?

Karan Thapar: Let's come back to the question that I began with. The real reason, if you are not accepting the moral obligation, that you find reservations wrong because they undermine merit, that they sacrifice standards?

Arun Shourie: Yes. That is one of the reasons.

Karan Thapar: But can I then point out to you that special concessions on the grounds that we are talking about have been granted to Indians since at least the 1850s, upper castes were beneficiaries. Let me give you an example. When the first college was set up in Madras in the late 1850s, British records show that the pass marks had to be reduced form 40 per cent to 33 per cent and a whole new concept of third division was introduced to help the sons of Tamil Brahmins. If it can be done for them in the 1850s, why can’t the same concession be given to the Dalits today?

Arun Shourie: Firstly, we are in 2006. The demand for proficiency is much greater. You look at the range of jobs at that time and the skills required for those jobs and…

Karan Thapar: But the problem is the same?

Arun Shourie: No. Firstly if that was the case, it was wrong. Second, if I have to learn typing and you give me a concession on that as in the case of N M Thomas vs. State of Kerala, then it is one thing. But if the job that is required is a highly skilled job in a medical institution and you lower the standards, the consequences are much greater. It’s not typing that you are lowering the standards for.

Karan Thapar: But talking about lowering standards to give them admissions and entrance, we are not talking about lowering standards of graduation. What we are talking about is just creating an opening field.

Arun Shourie: My friend, you have just not studied the Constitution in which it has now been provided that standards will be lowered even for promotions and standards have been lowered for post-graduate courses for reservations.

Karan Thapar: No, I am not questioning the extent…

Arun Shourie: You are. You just said this and then you run away.

Karan Thapar: No, I am not. I am not questioning the extent to which reservations have been taken. I am questioning the position you began with which is that reservations at the very outset for Dalits and Scheduled Castes is wrong. I am putting to you that similar concessions were given to Tamil Brahmins. Let me add. As the Indian University’s Commission says they were even given in 1935.

Arun Shourie: To hell with Tamil Brahmins, man. I am not defending. Dekho Tum baat hi nahin karne detein. Tamil Brahmins be damned. I wouldn’t care two hoots of what the British did. My whole argument is that the British sowed many of these things like separate electorates to divide Indian society.

Karan Thapar: All right. Let me give you a modern example. Yogendra Yadav did a study this month (in June) of 315 key positions in journalistic organisations and he chose 37 national journalistic organisations -- both television and print -- and he discovered that not one of the top 315 positions is manned by a Dalit. That is an example surely of the manner in which discrimination keeps out people of talent only on caste.

Arun Shourie: Absolute bunk. I cannot believe that Karan Thapar is not going to employ a proficient person whether it is for camera or for assisting him just because of caste. Karan Thapar is not like that.

Karan Thapar: Then how do you explain 315 top organisations and 37 media houses, including the papers you have worked for?

Arun Shourie: Because it takes time for that kind of competence to be acquired. Journalism is one of the freest professions as sports are, as entertainment industry is.

Karan Thapar: So, you are saying to the Dalits wait a century? Wait two centuries? Do you think time is on their side? You don’t think they need a helping hand?

Arun Shourie: Of course they do. But you don’t let me tell you what the helping hand has to be. Not reservations.

Karan Thapar: Why?

Arun Shourie: Because I have answered it 10 times and you keep going back to the same question. Repeating the very words. Just look at your own recording Karan, you are just repeating. You are taking up time.

Karan Thapar: You have answered it in terms of the moral obligation. Let me point out to you the efficacy between ’47 and ’97. In those 50 years alone, the number of Dalits who as a result of reservations went to schools and colleges grew from 1.74 million to 27.92 million. During the same period, the number of Dalit graduates jumped from 50,000 to over 5.5 million. That’s an example of how reservations have helped and you are denying this to them.

Arun Shourie: You have just picked up a few statistics.

Karan Thapar: Very meaningful ones.

Arun Shourie: Just one second. For the total number of persons going to school, what is the statistics from 1947 to 2006?

Karan Thapar: What do you mean the total number?

Arun Shourie: Irrespective of Dalits. The total number of school-going population in India from 1947 and now. Tell me.

Karan Thapar: I don’t know the answer, but the point that I am making is that the percentage of both has increased. I am saying the percentage of Dalits has increased because of reservations. Otherwise the system would have kept them out.

Arun Shourie: How do you say the last sentence?

Karan Thapar: I will illustrate it by taking government employment.

Arun Shourie: No. But firstly, you did not know what was the total growth.

Karan Thapar: Do you know it?

Arun Shourie: No.

Karan Thapar: You don’t either. You are simply trying to question whether the two have increased equivalently. I am saying that in fact the reason why the Dalits have increased. It's because of reservations and not because of general improvement in society.

Arun Shourie: That is just an assertion of yours.

Karan Thapar: It is a fairly valid one that most people would accept.

Arun Shourie: How do you say this? Then we have two contradictory assertions.

Karan Thapar: So you neither accept the logic in terms of morality or in terms of efficacy?

Arun Shourie: Yes.

Karan Thapar: On both grounds, you think reservations are wrong?

Arun Shourie: Absolutely.

Karan Thapar: Arun Shourie, since you are implacably opposed to reservations for the Scheduled Castes, what is your preferred way of tackling the discrimination they have suffered for centuries?

Arun Shourie: Firstly, I am not against reservations only for the Scheduled Castes, but for everybody. Second point is yes, if they have suffered that kind of discrimination and we have got good records of this kind of thing happening in the South, for instance in many parts of Tamil Nadu, then the best way is social reform and these great reformers who have made an enormous difference to India in the last 200 years as testified to by the Christian missionaries themselves.

Karan Thapar: Is there a second way beyond social reforms?

Arun Shourie: Yes, there is. Second is economic growth and modernisation.

Karan Thapar: Third?

Arun Shourie: Third is to find out what is the real reason for the poor performance of the child. For instance, he cannot retain what he learns in class because of poor nutrition, give him four free meals a day.

Karan Thapar: Individual attention?

Arun Shourie: Yes, absolutely.

Karan Thapar: Is there a fourth?

Arun Shourie: Yes. There are many things. He doesn’t have a place to study, make free dormitories. He needs free textbooks, he needs training and education.

Karan Thapar: That’s all part of individual attention. But is there yet another measure you would like to implement to help the Dalit? Because let me tell you why I am asking you all the things you have talked about -- social reform, economic growth, individual attention, they are very slow. They are unenforceable, they are difficult to monitor, they are certainly not transparent and in most cases, they are voluntary. The reason why people prefer reservations is because they are transparent, they are enforceable, and they are monitorable.

Arun Shourie: And for 50 years you have not monitored them? Even the government.

Karan Thapar: But that’s not the failure of reservations? That is the failure of the administration.

Arun Shourie: No. No. You don’t understand. Reservations are going to be implemented by whom? By the Americans in India?

Karan Thapar: Reservations have been implemented badly. That’s not an argument against reservations per se?

Arun Shourie: That is the usual argument of Five-Year Plans. Plan was good, but was not implemented properly.

Karan Thapar: But in this case, it is the truth?

Arun Shourie: It is not the truth. It is an assertion that you keep making. The fact of the matter is that these free lunch programmes, midday meals have helped a great deal in reducing dropout rates, in retention of what is learnt. We should do that. That is what requires painstaking work and the very fact that things are not being monitored…

I will give you an example if you please permit me. Recently in the Standing Committee of the Parliament on Social Welfare, there was a report available in May, in which the Secretary of Social Welfare was asked: "You have a backward classes of financial corporation, how do you distribute the money between he states?" He said: "Madam, we distribute it according to the proportion of OBC population in different states." She said: "How do you know the number?" He said: "We don’t know the number." She said: "What is the total number of OBCs in India?" He said: "We don’t know." "What is the total number of Scheduled Caste people?" He said: "We don’t know." If we don't know the number, we don’t know the distribution, we are not monitoring who is getting what.

Karan Thapar: It is a little facile to knock down reservations on the ground that the administrators who are responsible for administrating them are fools. That’s what you are proving. You are proving the administration, not the policy of reservations, is wrong.

Arun Shourie: I am saying more. Many commentators are just assertives. I will not listen to…

Karan Thapar: The assertion could be on fact?

Arun Shourie: What is the fact?

Karan Thapar: I can argue that your refusal to accept this is based on prejudice.

Arun Shourie: No. The caste people…

Karan Thapar: I being the asserter, you could be the prejudiced.

Arun Shourie: Could be. The Scheduled Caste people are saying that the benefits of reservations are being hogged by a Creamy Layer within Scheduled Caste.

Karan Thapar: But at least they are getting it. The Creamy Layer didn’t have it 50 years ago.

Arun Shourie: It is impossible to argue with that.

Karan Thapar: Why? It is a fact.

Arun Shourie: What is the Creamy Layer?

Karan Thapar: Once the Creamy Layer has benefited, you can remove them, but let them benefit before you remove them.

Arun Shourie: But you can benefit the people by having an economic criterion for identifying the individual. Why not?

Karan Thapar: You know that each time milk boils, it forms a Creamy Layer. You just remove it. Each boiling brings a fresh layer to the top.

Arun Shourie: Milk could be made to boil many time over, provided you identify the state policy by the unit of the individual and you identify the beneficiary individual by economic criteria. You would then not be fortifying precisely the types of regressive institutions within Indian society like caste, which you want to get rid off.

Karan Thapar: Except that the people who are untouchables were not created untouchables because of their individual character but because of the group. That’s why the group is being focused upon.

Arun Shourie: It reinforces the kind of group. This was Panditji’s view. I believe that this has been vindicated by time that we have reinforced that group identity to the great evil of society, to the ill results of society.

Karan Thapar: This will unfortunately have to be my last question. That many Dalits listening to you will say that ‘he may be a liberal in many matters, but he is a hard-hearted, callous man who simply doesn’t understand what it’s like to be oppressed under centuries of discrimination.’

Arun Shourie: They said that to me when I wrote about Bhindrawala. He is a Hindu, Arya Samaji, does not…

Karan Thapar: The two situations don’t equate.

Arun Shourie: They do. When I wrote about the Shariat and the consequences of Shah Bano, everybody said he is communal, he is Hindu. And now? So wait for time.

Karan Thapar: So the verdict of your peers or the verdict of the majority of society is water off a duck's back as far as Arun Shourie is concerned.

Arun Shourie: I don’t know what the majority of the society. Karan Thapar doesn’t speak for them either.

Karan Thapar: Arun Shourie, a pleasure talking to you.

Arun Shourie: Thank you.