To The Point: Arun Shourie On The Modi Government

To The Point: Arun Shourie On The Modi Government

Arun Shourie on the Environment debate

Arun Shourie (File photo)

Arun Shourie, the winner of the Ramon Magsaysay Award for journalism in 1982, wrote in his book ‘We must have no price’ about the UPA’s official position on the  environment some of which has its relevant even today.

Shri Arun Shourie’s Book “We Must Have No Price” can be purchased from Amazon – click here and Flipkart – click here.

The four propositions on which India’s official position on environment had been articulated at various international fora in the past were :

1. On a per capita basis, emissions from India that harm world climate – CO₂ and the rest – are much, much less than those from the developed countries.

2. India is affecting perceptible, indeed substantial improvements – in area covered by forests (that is, in sequestering carbon), in energy efficiency (for instance, in energy-intensive industries like cement and steel), in improving the quality of air, etc.

3. Several of the measures and protocols that are being suggested will curb India’s growth rate, and, thereby, perpetuate India’s poverty.

4. And it is poverty which is the greatest pollution, it is also the greatest polluter: hence, India shall continue to strive to eliminate poverty and maximise growth. As they are the principal doers of harm, the developed countries must do their bit first before compelling countries like India into curbing their growth.

Mr. Shourie was of the opinion that the argument that others have problems, that others are exacerbating their problems and ours, is of little consolation: the deterioration that has taken place in India’s environment during the last 30 years because of things happening within India inflicts grave harm on Indians, here and now.

He also added that neither the then government’s draft on environment nor the pattern of development which underlied it were sustainable. According to him if things were to continue as they were, between then and 2050, close to 500 million people will be added to our cities. Mr. Shourie raised the question if India would be able to provide the quality of urban services that the urban resident of 2050 would demand. He added that India would have to do its bit, both for itself and also for the world.

While the amounts of emissions and pollutants that it releases per capital are lower than those of the developed countries, the totals of these are large, and, if Indians were to persist in acquiring consumption levels and adopting production processes of the developed world, these emissions will become fatally large because of the size of India’s population.

The renowned author and politician Arun Shourie, also suggested that India would be well-advised to set up national research missions to develop items such as the following:

» A cheaper and more efficient photovoltaic cell

» Cheaper and more efficient wind turbines

» The entire range of technologies and construction techniques that would enable us to set up off-shore wind farms along our extensive coast

» Technologies to harness tidal power

» An efficient hydrogen fuel cell

» Clean coal processes

» Desalination of sea water using solar and wind energies that are available in virtually endless supply along India’s long coastline

» Fast breeder nuclear reactors

» The thorium cycle for nuclear power

Mr Shourie stated that the entire discourse in India back then revolved around whether we will be growing at 6.7% or 7.6%. Quite apart from the fact that the way our GDP, etc. are estimated, such discourse places a concreteness on these numbers that is just not warranted, obsession with such growth rates obscures what is growing at these rates. Even a little reflection shows that were India to continue to pursue Western consumption patterns and production processes, twenty years hence all the steps taken together would have proven inadequate.

Mr. Shourie concluded by stating that there just aren’t the resources that could sustain that energy-intensive, high consumption, fossil-fuel dependent “growth”. Nor is it evident that higher and higher consumption and production of those commodities and services is what will contribute to what the Bhutanese have correctly identified as the goal towards which societies should strive – Gross Domestic Happiness.

Source http://www.niticentral.com/2014/12/28/arun-shourie-indias-official-position-environment-292689.html

Is Modi going to be India's Hitler? : Karan Thapar to Arun Shourie

Published on Apr 21, 2014
As far as opinion polls go, there seems to be little doubt that a BJP-led coalition government headed by Narendra Modi will come to power at the centre this year. However, while some believe that Modi's brand of dynamic and decisive leadership is exactly the cure that an ailing Indian economy needs at the moment, his seemingly 'communal' attitude has also given many a big cause for concern. Arun Shourie, former journalist, author and former Union Minister in the previous NDA regime, in this candid interview with Karan Thapar, seeks to allay those fears.

‘Modi may be an agent of change, but he has to reshape an entire ocean’

Former Union minister Arun Shourie talks about the ‘impenetrable fog’ that surrounds those who assume office and how the media makes it more dense.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: What do you think about the government and the buzz around PM Narendra Modi’s style of functioning?

I don’t want to use harsh words but the  consensus seems to be that when all is said and done, more is said than done. I am sure sincere efforts are being made and they may yield results, but as Akbar Allahabadi said, ‘Plateon ke aane ki awaaz toh aa rahi hai, khaana nahin aa raha (The  plates’ sound can be heard but the food is not coming)’.

Harish Damodaran: Why is the food not coming?

In every government, including this one, the focus is on announcing new schemes. Each scheme adds a task to the hands of the government/state. People in office think their marks will depend on the number of schemes they have announced. Yet, in spite of all the talk, we do not attach importance to the State — its functioning, personnel, institutions, rules, etc. With the kind of personnel any government in India chooses for institutions, does it show they attach importance to the State? We always think of reforms as one scheme — GST aayega ya nahin, insurance Bill pass hoga ya nahin. But the real theme of reforms has been to reduce the role of the State in our lives. We continue to do the opposite. That’s why things don’t happen. And rationalisations develop for this. An article commented on Mr Modi’s Cabinet. It said there is the Pareto rule that says institutions and governments are run only by 20 per cent. You only need 20 per cent who are good. So, we seem to think of putting good persons in only two-three ministries.

Even today, the main instrument relied on is bureaucracy. But bureaucracy is not what it was 30-40 years ago, you don’t have L K Jhas or B K Nehrus. A civil servant I met recently said: ‘I am going to retire in 15-20 months. Ten years after my retirement, I will be subjected to some CBI inspector. So, why should I take a decision? Let the minister take it.’ Thirdly, you could still rely on civil services but induct experts. But that can only be effective if you put them not in decorative advisory positions but in decisive ones.

Dilip Bobb: So you don’t think Modi is an agent of change?

He may be an agent of change as an individual. But no matter how big your oar is, you have to change, reshape an ocean. It’s not just about simplifying reforms. The depth and pervasiveness of reforms has to be great. To reform, say, the CBI, you can’t just change the director, but the training of persons who are at the cutting edge — the inspector, the investigating officer. How long will it take to do that?

Same is with the the lower judiciary. In November last year, a policeman came to our home with a non-bailable warrant of arrest for my wife — if she didn’t report at 10 am in a Faridabad court the next day, she would get a five-year punishment. Shocked, I asked why. He said she refused summons five times. But I said we got no summons. He offered no explanation.

At the court, I asked the woman magistrate why an arrest warrant was issued for my wife. She said she refused summons. I said we got none. She said, ‘Sometimes our people don’t deliver summons and write they have been refused.’

She said we were sent summons for building an ‘illegal’ farmhouse  and asked if we had a plot in the Aravallis. I said the plot was registered in our name for a few months. We needed money to build a house near Pune, so we sold it. We didn’t place a single brick there. The public prosecutor said, ‘Yes, it’s not their plot and they have built nothing there.’ The judge, however, said: ‘But now the process has begun. I can give your wife bail but only till the next hearing when she has to appear physically.’

So, my wife is out on bail for refusing summons which were not served, for building a house which we have not built on a plot which we don’t own. The lady magistrate has gone, a new person has come. He says, ‘I know you have done nothing. But if I let you off, people will say it was done under political pressure or that you’ve paid me.’

So the reform has to be much deeper. When people assume office, they forget how deeply the system has to be changed. They get surrounded by an impenetrable fog of self-satisfaction. And media makes the fog more dense. Their photographs are everywhere. The industralists says you are ‘almighty’s gift to us’. I am told secretaries have started speaking this way. They think change has already come. Our job is to keep them awake.

Amitabh Sinha: Going by high-pitched campaigns like Swachh Bharat, cleaning Ganga, or reviving Sanskrit, what do you make of the priorities of this government?

Swachhta is a wonderful idea. It involves both society and the State in cleaning public spaces. If the State succeeds in generating a movement, it would be very good. On Sanskrit, there is the either/or thinking — similar to over the three-year vs four-year courses at Delhi University. What is the fault of those who are learning German? If you are so keen, introduce Sanskrit as an optional subject, then increase the capacity to learn… Maybe a lot of YouTube videos, CDs… Over three-four years, introduce the whole thing. It becomes a painless transition.

Rakesh Sinha: What do you make of the move to dismantle the Planning Commission?

Dr Y V Reddy had said that throughout, even when it was not a great intellectual resource, the Planning Commission was regarded as a referee between the Centre and states. But the perceived proximity between Manmohan Singh and Montek Singh Ahluwalia made the Planning Commission look like an instrument of the Centre. So, it lost credibility.

The Planning Commission had asked me to write a paper on reform. I had interviewed officers and asked them to characterise the Commission. Somebody said ‘a parking lot’, another said ‘gaushala (cowshed)’. I told an officer that his colleague had called the Commission a gaushala. He said, ‘A gaushala has cows that give milk. This is a place for derelict cows.’ So, if you appoint such personnel, the institution loses credibility. You could improve the Commission by getting the best personnel.

Mr Modi’s presumption, I think in this case, was formed by the resentment of the previous 10 years as a CM against the commission.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: Do you see the current government as an extension of Modi’s campaign — one person at the top and the Cabinet not very varied or delivering governance at the doorstep? 

India is diverse and very large. I am using the words of a very big man, whose name I cannot tell you. ‘It is not a municipality, it is the federal government of India,’ he said. It cannot be run by small numbers.

Raj Kamal Jha: One of the most visible things Modi has done is on the diplomatic front — his visits to the US, China, Australia, Japan. How do you view India’s international relations under the new government?

Modi certainly thinks on a different scale, and laterally. I remember his phrase: ‘Arrey, yeh theek nahi hai, kuch dhamakedaar idea do (This is not okay, give a bombastic idea).’ You can see that in foreign policy: one is emphasis on neighbours, and secondly, looking at China. I endorse that, but it should be done at a lower profile. If you look at it from the Chinese viewpoint, all these are acts of provocation. If you want to provoke them, you have to be prepared for the backlash. In Japan, Shinzo Abe has a stridently anti-Chinese rhetoric. Vietnam is in non-lethal conflict with China. I am all for alliances and intelligence exchanges with them, but don’t rub it in the face of China.

What has China done? Without any fanfare, they signed an MoU with Nepal for the development of districts. They have announced $65 billion for development of infrastructure in Pakistan.

We are going all over the world (talking) about our acquisitions and orders. I fear we are doing things with a visibility, which will provoke China.

Surabhi: Critics say there is intellectual paucity in the government — no Planning Commission or PM’s economic advisory council.

Three PMs valued ideas as ideas: Panditji (Jawaharlal Nehru), Narasimha Rao and Atal Bihari Vajpayee. The others seemed to be practical men. Maybe that is what India needs, but ideas are also necessary.

Rajgopal Singh*: What is your opinion on age limit for political appointments at the Centre?

I am past 72 or 73, but I felt this is the wrong criterion even when I was younger. Sanjay and Rajiv Gandhi were young men. What did they do? The two biggest reformers in India, Narasimha Rao and Vajpayee, were older men. Look at a person’s capacity to contribute. Harish Damodaran: The PMO interacts with the secretaries and the ministers are nowhere. Is it sustainable — ministers with no power and bureaucrats all powerful?

The first part may be correct, but not the second. I had taken up this view with Mr Modi before the formation of the government, that given the quality of people the electoral system throws up, he would have to ensure direct contact with secretaries who would, generally speaking, be better than ministers. But do secretaries know how much they can decide? I don’t know. Do ministers know how much they can decide? I don’t know. What is the limit? Can they appoint directors on their own to Coal India, to Air India, to banks? Under Vajpayee, you would be given a charge and could do anything.

Praveen Swami: This government has announced grand schemes but has not given out details about their execution. Do you believe there is a lack of vision or do you believe a few people close to the government saying there is a great deal going on?

A PM can only give a sense of direction, he can symbolically do a few acts so others take it up. But if the others are uncertain about what they can take up, then details do not get worked out. Maybe it is a reflection of that. Such campaigns have to be carried to the toilet on the road. But maybe the Transport Ministry doesn’t know, so they don’t work out the details.

About the 100 smart cities, by now, we should have been told the essence of smartness… In the case of Swachh Bharat, we should not look upon it and ask whether Modi will succeed or fail. Then it becomes merely Modi’s campaign.

Abhishek Angad*: How do you think the government is handling issues about Muslims? 

I agree with Modi’s general approach, which is to provide facilities across the board, not on the basis of caste or religion. Whenever we provide benefit based on a criterion other than economic, politics is played around it. Development requires focus, and Modi has to ensure that focus, which means you must also control the fringe elements. You cannot talk development in Delhi and love jihad in Muzaffarnagar. It distracts. If love jihad was so dangerous, how did the phenomenon stop after voting?

Ajay Shankar: The Modi wave still seems to be prevailing. When and how will there be a reality check?

The reduction of oil prices has put blinkers on people’s eyes and has delayed a reality check. Otherwise, by now, with the fiscal deficit and diminishing oil prices, if for the first seven-eight months the targeted deficit would have been consumed, a reality check would have come. As Swaminathan Aiyar said, it’s not just achhe din, but also achhe sitare.

P Vaidyanathan Iyer: Would you accept a role in government if offered?

Nobody offers me, what to do? (Laughs.) Faiz Ahmad Faiz had said, ‘Kuch hum hi ko nahin ehsaan uthane ka dimaag, woh jab aate hain mail-ba-karam aate hain (I did not want to take on another obligation, whenever she came, she came determined to endow her favours on me)’.

Ajay Shankar: What happened during the famous pre-government meeting of yours?

The post-government meeting should also be famous. First newspapers give you the job, then next day say you are disappointed (laughs). I’m neither appointed, nor disappointed.

*EXIMS student Transcribed by Aslesha and Saikat Bose

Source http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/modi-may-be-an-agent-of-change-but-he-has-to-reshape-an-entire-ocean/

Political Capital- Modi's A-Team: Arun Shourie

 May 15, 2014

The other name that has been discussed as a potential Finance Minister, if Narendra Modi becomes the Prime Minister, is that of Arun Shourie.

While Shourie did not contest the Lok Sabha polls this year, he is known to be someone who Modi relies on for inputs on economic policy. Shourie told Vivek Law in September that he found the UPA's strategy to combat inflation and the fiscal situation deeply flawed.

Modi Cabinet: Jaitley, Shourie top contenders for Finance Ministry

 May 20, 2014

Jockeying for key posts in Team Narendra Modi has intensified as the swearing-in ceremony will take place on Monday, May 26. Sources have now told CNN-IBN that Arun Jaitley and Arun Shourie are the top two contenders for the Finance Ministry.

Arun Jaitley has the upper hand even after his defeat in the Lok Sabha elections, say sources. This as Arun Shourie has been out of the political picture for a while.

Modi likely to cut the Cabinet to half of its present size: Arun Shourie

New Delhi: Journalist-politician Arun Shourie, who is likely to get an important role in the Narendra Modi government, has said that as of now no one knows who will get which portfolio except the Prime Minister-designate.

He also downplayed speculations that he met BJP chief Rajnath Singh in Delhi to discuss the role he might be given in the NDA government.

In an exclusive interview to CNN-IBN, Shourie revealed that Modi will most likely downsize the government and the Cabinet could be cut to half its present size.

Here is the full transcript of the interview:

Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you joining the Narendra Modi government?

Arun Shourie: I frankly don't know and I can assure you as of now no one knows except Modi.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Can I tell you why these speculations has grown. (A) You have gone and met Rajnath Singh and (B) you are back in Delhi and you are spending so much time in Delhi that people are wondering is Arun Shourie back in the corridors of power and is he becoming a minister?

Arun Shourie: Let me take these two points. I was called by Shudhansu Trivedi, a good friend of mine and associate of Rajnath Singh, and he asked me to come and meet Rajnath Singh. I came and met him over a general chit chat.

Rajdeep Sardesai: Nothing to do with government formations?

Arun Shourie: Nothing at all.

Rajdeep Sardesai: The other reason is you are the adviser to Narendra Modi, he has high regards for you.

Arun Shourie: Well that you will know, I will not know.

Rajdeep Sardesai: If Narendra Modi offers you finance ministry, you will not take?

Arun Shourie: I will not answer that question. How can you just build castle in and then decline to owe it?

Rajdeep Sardesai: My final point is that we should not make headline that the battle of finance battle is between two Aruns, Arun Jaitely and Arun Shourie.

Arun Shourie: Yes, absolutely.

Rajdeep Sardesai: What I have seen is a mantra that you have been voicing and interestingly Mr Modi voices - less government and more governance. What does that really mean? As we are reaching to the cabinet formation, you were part of Vajpayee's government of about 80 ministers, ditto with Manmohan Singh. Do we need a leaner smaller downsized government with more focused areas?

Arun Shourie: I think Mr Modi is really keen on that, the first idea is to just collapse ministries. Have higher tier of a ministry for say energy ministry, all the energy, coal, mining other than these atomic energy you can take all the power type of electricity related, one conventional ministry, leave them under Ministers of State and one Cabinet Minister rather then seven. This is one example, similarly in transport.

Rajdeep Sardesai: So you will bring road and railways and all transport ministries under one umbrella?

Arun Shourie: Railway is too big, but we can bring other transports under one umbrella to an extent to which a coordination is required. Sometime there is not that much is required in road and air but in road and railways yes. But the most creative idea in downsizing the cabinet actually came from TV18's Raghav Bahl, he gave a good idea. Just as in banking sector as Naik committee has observed that all bank should be put under a holding company. Raghav Bahl's good idea is to take all the PSU out of all ministries and put them under a holding company. Even under the existing system you will have a situation where you will have an asset of three to four billion dollar to start with, as currently valued. His estimate is that anything you want to raise from 500 billion dollar to trillion dollar in next five years, you can raise and use it for infrastructure and at the same time downsize the government.

Source: http://ibnlive.in.com/news/modi-likely-to-cut-the-cabinet-to-half-of-its-present-size-arun-shourie/473925-37-64.html

RSS must keep a hawk's eye on the government: Arun Shourie

BJP leader Arun Shourie, former minister of the NDA government is rumoured to once agian gain a prime position in Narendra Modi's cabinet. 

In a recent interview with NDTV, he spoke about the priorities and challenges of the new government that will be led by Narendra Modi. He denied rumours of being offered the post of finance minister, and said, "No one but Modi knows that and he will not fail to surprise."

In the interview, he elaborated on the role of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in the formation of the cabinet. There has been some speculation of hindu organistion's influence over the new government.  

He said, "Modi will want to succeed as a builder of modern India, not distracted by anybody The RSS inputs shall be taken at face value. Their role will be in providing general suggestions."

Defending his stand, he added, "No social group will have as much influence on policies as the government, so its best to leave it upto the government."

He goes on to say that, the RSS should take on the role of being a watchdog, to check the conduct of individuals. “RSS must keep a hawk's eye on the conduct of ministers and MLA's.”

He said RSS should be an external body meant to keep the government in line, rather than interfering in policy making.

Source: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-rss-must-keep-a-hawk-s-eye-on-the-government-arun-shourie-1990269

Modi can use Article 254 to push state-level reforms: Shourie

Shourie says of Modi while outlining what a CM-PM partnership could possibly mean.

Whether it is changes in labour laws, or the restrictive Agricultural Produce Market Committee Act, or several others, the standard argument against reform is that, since the laws are on the Concurrent List, states cannot change them till the Centre does. And that, in a fractured Parliament, isn’t going to happen.

Not true, says former NDA telecom minister Arun Shourie, and points out that, should he wish, a Narendra Modi — were he to become Prime Minister —can bring about genuine federalism and allow the more progressive states to change their laws.

In the case of industrial disputes, says Shourie, the argument is that till the Centre raises the ceiling — firms with more than 100 workers require government permission to fire workers or shut down — the states can’t follow suit. “Everyone is reading Article 254(1) of the Constitution … But 254(2) allows the state legislation to prevail provided the President gives his assent — that just means a Modi government has to be in favour of it”.

Why should a Modi wait to try and change the Central law — the electoral arithmetic in the Rajya Sabha won’t allow him to — asks Shourie, he should simply allow a Maharashtra or an Andhra Pradesh to propose a changed law for themselves and get the President to give his assent.

“A few states will start, the rest can follow later”, says Shourie, while pointing out that a Modi prime ministership will focus on raising India’s Doing Business ranking. “Your complaint”, Shourie says of Modi while outlining what a CM-PM partnership could possibly mean, “was that the Centre did not clear several of your laws, don’t let that happen to others”. “Just say that any state which will come up with a provision, a law, that makes it easier for India to compete with South East Asia … that law will be allowed to be passed by the Centre.”

While outlining other possible agenda items for Modi, Shourie says, apart from appointing ministers of impeccable integrity (“many tough decisions are needed … you don’t want people casting aspersions”), Modi has to select all important secretaries to the government himself — “Manmohan Singh allowed the ministers to choose their secretaries, and they remained beholden to their ministers, many of whom were governments in themselves”. To being with, get these secretaries, Shourie says, to give you a list of things that can be done without needing to go to Parliament.

“You complain that PSUs or PSU banks are badly run because the directors on board don’t do a good job … Where does Parliament come into that? The Railways are not building a few hundred km of track to help evacuate coal … where does Parliament come into that?”, Shourie asks with a flourish.

Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/business/business-others/modi-can-use-article-254-to-push-state-level-reforms-shourie/99/

Apr 17, 2014

In this Episode of Walk The Talk, Mr Shourie talks about how this election will be different for political parties and that there will be difficult decisions to take. He also talks about how good the RBI Governor Raghuram Rajan is and how he revived current economic scenario.

‘All depends on persons Modi will choose. He must not take any tainted person, not worry about Oppn here, and make CMs partners in governing India’

In this Walk the Talk on NDTV 24x7 with The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta, former Union minister Arun Shourie talks about the tasks for the new government, the Gujarat CM’s style of working, the “understanding” that Modi could reach with the RSS and the fall in stature of the PMO

In this Walk the Talk on NDTV 24×7 with The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta, former Union minister Arun Shourie talks about the tasks for the new government, the Gujarat CM’s style of working, the “understanding” that Modi could reach with the RSS and the fall in stature of the PMO.

These polls are being described as the most significant elections in India’s history although, you will agree, every election in India is called that.
That and, in 1977, when the Emergency was being voted upon. Yes, so everything is significant

Everything is significant, except people like us can say, ‘Hamare time mein zyaada important tha (Things were more important during our days)’. But this election is different in the sense that you might see a change of not just parties or a coalition, but a change of character, temperament, style, ideology.
There will be a change in the sense that it is a presidential election… The people, local candidates mattered a lot, the parties mattered a lot. But this time, only one figure… His critics have made him (that), and the nature of Modi’s own campaign…

Either vote for or against Narendra Modi.
That’s the issue. And naturally, Modi is a very different person from Dr Manmohan Singh and others whom we have seen. Therefore, the style of governance will completely change. I think it’ll be much more centred around the prime minister’s office, the Cabinet Secretariat — 30 secretaries appointed directly by the prime minister — and the government run through them.

I had written in 2007, the day before the results in Gujarat, that if Modi wins, and I had sort of stuck my neck out, that he will not defer to the RSS as, say, Atal Bihari Vajpayee or L K Advani did.
I think Vajpayee did not defer, but he was able to manage. In Modi’s case, I think, there will be a clear understanding and, if the understanding works, the RSS can monitor the conduct of individual members of the BJP who become MPs or ministers and leave policy formation to the government. I think that is a good division of labour. Probably Modi will ensure that.

You also might see over-correction. But the fact is that the prime minister’s office needs to have its — for want of a better word in English — iqbal restored.
Yes, absolutely

To what do you ascribe this fall in stature of the PMO?
Actually to the prime minister himself. The authority of the prime minister of India is so enormous, and I have always felt that this business of blaming Sonia Gandhi for everything — ‘Woh kara rahi hain, usko main rok raha hoon (She is asking me to do this, I’m stopping it)’ — is just not the case. I cannot imagine her being so interested in the details, and therefore, it is the prime minister. And, in any case, there was the RSS and Vajpayee. You could see the RSS was more powerful than Sonia Gandhi. But Vajpayee insulated the government.

When the RSS wanted Brajesh Mishra and N K Singh removed, Vajpayee said, ‘Take my head, they stay on with me’.
And remember, everybody would shout against Yashwant Sinha, his policies. But it was Vajpayee who always stood by him. So prime minister’s office is central, it has to be strengthened, but many more things have to be done.

Because our governance is in shambles.
Absolutely, from top to down. Arvind Datar, the famous lawyer and an authority on income tax in India, was saying that several multinational companies have been served notices. A company has a factory in Chennai, they have exported, and suddenly the income tax fellow says, ‘No no, where is the export form?’. Actually, he has seen the export forms, he has done the audit for one month of that company, and says, ‘No, these are not exports. Foreign exchange has come in, Rs 20,000 crore has come in, so it’s exports’. He says, ‘No, I say these are inter-state sales, so you pay such-and-such amount’. And he (Datar) was telling me about a case he’s handling in which the company has said, ‘We are not investing in India, we are moving to Vietnam’. So if you are giving targets to income tax officers, they will just slap notices and this is the consequence.
On the other side, you have the Ministry of Commerce saying, ‘100 per cent FDI! 80 per cent FDI!’. Who’s going to come? Things have to be done from top to bottom, because one of the consequences of Dr Manmohan Singh abdicating his authority was that every single person became a government on his own.

And every man for himself. In the sense that, ‘Pata nahi kal kya hoga (who knows what may happen tomorrow)’.
Yes, absolutely. In my own case, Hindustan Zinc, your paper published that an inquiry was started.

The Supreme Court has set it aside, the high court has set it aside.
The CBI’s seniormost people said there is no inquiry, but one SP and DSP based in Jodhpur started an inquiry. And when they came here, they talked to the officer, they talked to me, they talked to two officers, we asked them what is the complaint. They said, ‘There was no written complaint, we got the information orally’.

I remember when economic reforms first started in ‘91, I was coming from overseas and started chatting with Customs people. I said, ‘Kya kar rahe ho aap? Now things are very relaxed’. He said, ‘No, we are not following any of the new orders, we are checking everybody because these two fellows, Manmohan Singh and Montek Singh Ahluwalia, want to sell India’s interests, destroy our industry, and give it all to multinationals. We will never let this happen’. So this is a country of self-appointed freedom fighters.
That is one point. The second is… Avinash Prasad, a big consultant based in the UK, said the task of the new government is going to be to break India’s anti-growth lobby. The enemies of change.

Would you define that lobby?
They are people who imagine the difficulties that change would bring about.

One is the povertarian, who says growth is bad.
‘Growth is bad’, secondly, ‘inequality will increase’. You make a big dam, there’ll be families that have to be relocated. It’s one point to have good rehabilitation relief policies, but what happens in India is you start focusing only on the three families which have not got housing as yet. And you say the whole thing is bad. The activists do it, they are issue-hunting. Media falls for those activists. So any negative stance in India gets a lot of play. Therefore, it’s the income tax officer, the lower courts, a whole network that is impeding growth.

I heard a former general say the other day that there’s a nuclear plant coming up in Haryana. ‘A canal’s water will be used to cool it and then the water will irrigate the fields, it will carry radiation’. This is almost like Mani Ram Bagri in the ‘60s saying, ‘Bhakra Nangal mein paani mein se bijli nikali, ab gehoon kya paida hoga (Electricity has been taken out of Bhakra Nangal waters, what wheat can it irrigate now)?’. These things go unquestioned now.
Indira Gandhi said in 1983 in Parliament that one of the great breakthroughs for India’s atomic programme was the uranium finds in Andhra Pradesh. We have not been able to take one teaspoon out of it.

I will admit that the media is a lot to blame in this. We too don’t want to be confused with facts… ‘Meri theory hai, mujhe khabar mil gayi hai, confuse na karo (This is my theory, I have the information, please don’t confuse me)’. If the telecom scam was 4.4 per cent of India’s GDP, the price of that spectrum in 2007, so be it.
I think there are very difficult decisions to be taken, which Modi would have to use all his reputation to do. I was looking at these debt figures in Pranab Mukherjee’s time… In the next five years, you know how much we have to repay? Almost three times what we have been repaying. So what will you do on expenditure, on subsidies, because you can’t go on cutting capital expenditure as has happened. You can’t just go on postponing expenditure to April from March and show that my deficit is okay.

One good thing has happened, in the middle of all this. At least we have an RBI governor now who has a calming presence.
There is faith that there is professionalism in policy formulation. Therefore I was distressed that pebbles are being thrown at him by maybe prospective ministers. Meghnad Desai was right in saying, ‘You remove Raghuram Rajan, not one penny of foreign direct investment will come in’. People will not have faith that this is going to be a professionally run country, even in monetary policy, which has always been insulated from political winds. So Modi will have a lot of disciplining to do, other ministers, finance, defence… You know better than anybody else what the condition of civil-military relations is, what A K Antony’s modesty has cost the country.

I call Antony the Bapu Nadkarni of politics. Bapu Nadkarni was a cricketer who holds a world record that will never be broken — 22 consecutive maiden overs. His figures were, I think, 24 overs, 23 maidens, one run and no wicket. He would not let anyone make runs, nor get them out. When batting, he wouldn’t get out, nor score runs.
But there is another feature which our common friend Ajai Shukla told me about… I hope I remember the figure correctly, 88 per cent is revenue expenditure of the Army’s budget. Only 12 per cent is for new acquisitions and weapons and capital improvement. So is this the way to defend the country?

The answer to everything has been to pass the buck on to a committee. Either it’s the GoM, or an e-GoM, or there is one more regulator…
The head of SEBI, he gave me a figure. Do you know how many regulators there are for the economy? Thirty-six. In the financial sector alone, there are nine. In one single sector, education, there are 13 regulators.

That’s why we have such wonderful higher education.
With these 13 regulators, the good colleges are not being allowed to function, and you have a situation in which Rayalaseema University alone in two years gave 2,600 PhDs. Secondly, 23 universities in Andhra Pradesh admitted in five years 38,000 PhD candidates and gave PhDs to half of them.

I think it was Agra University or one of these old universities in UP which gave a PhD on ‘Hindi Sahitya mein lote ka mahatva’. You just have to have the imagination.
In many cases, you don’t even have to have that… And, you know, we are talking of governance at this (top) level. At the bottom, we just don’t understand what governance has become. That’s why the appeal of AAP (Aam Aadmi Party). I’ll give you an instance. We were sitting in the evening, and the person downstairs, he told me a policeman has come. I ran down, and he asked if Anita Shourie lived there. I said, ‘Yes, she is my wife, she is unwell, so she is upstairs’. He said that she is a proclaimed absconder.
I asked why. (He said) that summons were served but there was no acceptance, so now a non-bailable warrant had been issued against her. He said if she didn’t appear in a Faridabad court by 11 am the next day, she would be imprisoned for five years. I ran to Faridabad. There was a young magistrate sitting there, so I asked her, ‘Madam, you issued this, but why?’. She said, ‘Our register shows that five times the summons were served’. I said, that didn’t happen, nobody came. And then somebody said, sometimes people do not go and just write in the register that summons were not accepted. But why was it served? She said, ‘You built an illegal farmhouse’. I said, ‘We’ve not built any farmhouse’. She said, ‘You don’t own such-and-such plot?’. I said we owned it but sold it five years ago because we needed the money to build a house near Pune. The person standing there happened to be the person appearing as the prosecutor. He said, ‘Yes, they have not built the house, they don’t even own the plot’. But she said, ‘Now the process has started, your wife has to appear at the next hearing’. She was suffering, so two of us had to hold her and take her there. The magistrate saw her condition, said, ‘Okay, I’ll give bail but only till the next hearing because I may be transferred’.
Now Anita is on bail for a summons which was not served, which was issued for a house that we have not built, on a plot which we don’t own. But I keep going to Faridabad.

That’s why people are so angry.
Angry, and therefore a great opportunity for Modi, but one which will require implementation from top to bottom.

He’ll need a lot more talent, my apologies, than what the BJP has right now.
Well, that’s true. If you look at the candidates from political classes as a whole — not (just) from a party — they are the same as they were last time.

Or their children.
And you have to make a government out of this. There was this wonderful couplet, by Anand Narain Mulla. He has written a book on Muslim personal law and he writes shayari also. He said, Dil qaidi ka behlane ko…

To comfort the prisoner.
To give solace to the prisoner… Darbaan badalte jaate hain.

The guards keep changing.
So that should not happen. The fact that all hope has come to rest on Modi is a great responsibility for him… Naturally, he would require, as you said, a lot of talent. As he has mobilised for the elections, he will have to mobilise for the government.

And you get the sense that the process has started?
I suppose, in a preliminary way, some lists would have been done, some notes made. But probably everything has got swept aside because of the campaign.

He has surprised everybody with his energy.
With energy, focus. A good way to look at it is to see, in retrospect, that all manufactured apprehensions — ‘other BJP leaders will not let him come’, ‘he does not have appeal outside Gujarat’, ‘the Congress will do some trick’ — have fallen aside.

‘He’s not a Brahmin’.
Yes, anything, saying he is a chaiwallah. Mani Shankar Aiyar only made him famous.

You and Mani Shankar went to the same college, at the same time.
We were in the same class. His great achievement in life is that he got, I think, 4 per cent (marks) more than me in his exam.

So Modi needs talent.
Talent, and also he needs the perseverance he has shown. Not GoMs and so on. What his style is, he makes everyone who is concerned sit together. Let’s say coal has to be solved, everybody concerned must sit on the table, discuss it thoroughly for eight hours. Decisions are taken there and then. Coal secretaries are asked what they need, finance what they need, commerce… it is done there and then. Now report back (in) the next meeting, one month from now.

If you were to give Modi a to-do list and a not-to-do list, what are the three things you will put on each one?
Find persons. Everything depends on the persons you will choose. No appointment is unimportant, because suddenly irrigation may become important, power may become important, mines and coals may become important. Second, please watch the conduct of everybody because everybody will be watching. Third, please realise how difficult the situation today is, with the economy and with national security. China, which is doing well, is a threat to India. Similarly, with the Americans going out of Afghanistan, in a sense in defeat, Pakistan acquiring influence there has only one way to deal with its militants — deflect them back into India. Also, don’t worry too much about the leaders of opposition here, make the chief ministers of India your partners in governing India. Panditji (Jawaharlal Nehru), in the most difficult circumstances, at the height of the Chinese war, would write a fortnightly letter to each chief minister, explaining to them the general context of policy.

And the three ‘not-to-do’s’.
Do not take a single tainted or incompetent person in your government. Because, as they say, a single chain is as strong as its weakest link. Follow up every order that you have given. This is not Ahmedabad, this is Delhi. This is a Mayanagri. One more thing to avoid. I have seen in Rajiv Gandhi’s case, and other cases, they thought that because they are managing Parliament, they are managing the situation. Not the case.

Transcribed by Hansika Chopra

Correction: In an earlier version the reference to Anand Narain Mulla incorrectly appeared as “a mullah in Allahabad”. The error is regretted

Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/all-depends-on-persons-modi-will-choose-he-must-not-take-any-tainted-person-not-worry-about-oppn-here-and-make-cms-partners-in-governing-india/99/

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